How can’t you realize what is happening in Ukraine? After all the events going on since Col., Moammar, Andrew, Gaddafi’s death; how can’t you see what is happening? And all historical reference aside, how still, can’t you see what is going on in Ukraine? If you are just looking for information about the situation, good luck finding out without Media reference. Good luck trying to find out. It is a contained situation concerning Constitutions, free democracy, and obligations. It is a hairy situation, out there in Ukraine, but depending on the feedback political minds receive, it is nonetheless a situation that ‘ordinary’ people have no voice in. Let it ride out. Getting involved, or compromising end goals, is bad for America, Ukraine, and political ties.
Last night (2/20/14) a so-called truce ended between Ukrainian government forces and rebels. This conflict has been escalating for the last 3 months. Its one of the most deadly days for Ukrainians. The Kiev municipal health authorities reported that 39 people had been killed on Thursday, bringing the total number of dead in three days of mayhem to at least 67.
In the center of Kiev war broke out when the police were authorized to use live ammunition. Protesters had decided to try to retake the square because they believed the truce announced around midnight was a ruse. The young men in ski masks who led the push, believed it was a stalling maneuver by President Viktor F. Yanukovych to buy time to deploy troops in the capital because the authorities decided the civilian police had insufficient forces to clear the square.Protesters had grown in numbers because buses had arrived with people ready to protest. Unidentified snipers opened fire on the protesters. Dr. Oleh Musiy, a medical coordinator for the protesters, as saying that at least 70 protesters had been killed and more than 500 wounded. There was no way to immediately corroborate his assertion.
At least one journalists has already been killed. Most roads leading in to Keiv are closed. Shops are closed, businesses are closed. The government have announced an antiterrorist state/state of emergency.
So whats the deal? Why is Ukraine protesting? It seems to be a war between support for an alliance with either the West (Europe) and East (Russia).
The Eastern half of the country speak Russian as a first language they want to align with Russia
The western half of the country wants to align with Europe.
Ukraine was previously the so called ‘bread basket’ of the old soviet union. One fourth of food for Russia came from Ukraine. Ukraine has full access to the Black Sea, a highly sought after port for Russia, Europe, and the Middle East. Russia has access to the port through Ukraine if the nation decides to align with Russia rather than the EU.
The protests began in November when Ukrainian President Mr. Yanukovych rejected a trade and economic agreement with the European Union and turned instead to Russia for financial aid. Russia will buy $15 billion in Ukrainian debt and slash the price Kiev pays for its gas. Thus supporting the storyline of Ukraine being a proxy for battles between Russia and the West.
But the conflict goes further than that. Its also about who will control the future of Ukraine and how. The protesters want to reform the constitution to shift power from the President to the parliament.
The fear now, s that the Ukrainian President will send troops to disband the protesters, increasing the bloodshed.
The US has threatened with strong International sanctions if the Ukrainian government doesn’t stop murdering its people. “We hold the Ukrainian government primarily responsible,” Obama said, “for making sure that it is dealing with peaceful protesters in an appropriate way, that the Ukrainian people are able to assemble and speak freely about their interests without fear of repression.” While the European Union sanctions are definitely moving forward.
The conflict is even reaching the Olympic Games. Olympic athlete Bogdana Matsotska is pulling out of the Olympics in protest of the Ukrainian government. She plans to join the protesters as soon as she can find a flight home. Olympic officials have announced that athletes can no longer wear black arm bands in support of the Ukrainian protests. They said that the arm bands are not in the spirit of the Olympic charter.
There have been many uprising in recent years. Currently, Venezuela is in a civil war. Syria, Egypt, Libya, Thailand. People are starting to demand their freedom. I think social media is contributing to the spread of information and people are starting uprisings. Who will take over, and whether true freedom will be brought to these countries is yet to be seen.
By Policy MAKES me SIGH
@political-english I agree with you on this situation. Whenever America gets involved we mess things up. We do not understand the situation. Plus, the Ukraine people deserve to fight for their own country and what they want. The international community should of course make sure there is no chemical weapons or anything like that, but the US alone should not go put its hands in the situation. Besides, as @twocents pointed out above the EU is a main player in this situation so they can get involved and provide aide/weapons to the rebels, we don’t need to get involved in sovereign nations issues.
They are fighting for their freedom. These folks are obviously smarter than we are. Half of us don’t know our freedom is vanishing.
My hopes and prayers go out to these people. May they get the freedom they seek.
Here is an update. This is an excerpt from the link below.
“Viktor Yanukovych Missing: Arrest Warrant Issued For Ukrainian President”
“SIMFEROPOL, Ukraine (AP) — Ukraine’s acting government issued a warrant Monday for the arrest of President Viktor Yanukovych, last reportedly seen in the pro-Russian Black Sea peninsula of Crimea, accusing him of mass crimes against protesters who stood up for months against his rule.
Calls are mounting in Ukraine to put Yanukovych on trial, after a tumultuous presidency in which he amassed powers, enriched his allies and cracked down on protesters. Anger boiled over last week after snipers attacked protesters in the bloodiest violence in Ukraine’s post-Soviet history.
The turmoil has turned this strategically located country of 46 million inside out over the past few days, raising fears that it could split apart. The parliament speaker is suddenly nominally in charge of a country whose economy is on the brink of default and whose loyalties are torn between Europe and longtime ruler Russia.”
These people have been driven to poverty, tortured, and executed. They’re just doing what they gotta do.
They look up to us, we need to get this country back on track or we’ll be looking up to them.
This is very interesting.
I just wrote THE MOUTH THAT ROARED and accidentally put it in budget so check it out, however,I would like to relate a story I got third hand.
I close friend who is usually on the conservative side related that he had just had a conversation with a local bank manager who is from Ukraine who says Putin is “a great guy”looking out for ethnic Russians to protect them from the western Ukrainians who are Mafia and that all the protests were paid stooges.
In this case I think its like Nancy Pelosi describing TEA Party people.
My point is that there are people who will believe utter claptrap.
A lot of them live and vote here,it’s not unique to Ukraine.
Putin has a big microphone and he is selling his story,but more important he understands the use of power and is willing to use it instead of running his mouth.
Possession they say is 9 tenths of the law. He has possession.
Obama is doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING HERE,without the troops.
Packing the NLRB,changing the 60 vote rule, selectively enforcing laws and regulations, not investigating the IRS and so forth.
We may be the Ukraine in our own way.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, —
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes;
and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
So… Am I to understand that the foregoing is held as a privilege reserved to English colonists and denied to the rest of mankind? Many years ago I would have been surprised by the general rejection, in the USA, of the principles of self-government but now with the progress the USA has made towards becoming a European-style Authoritarian Socialist Democracy I am just amused by Putin “bitch slapping” The Obama.
As I am not receiving notifications, I stumbled on this by chance. Posts by Gary and Peter are very relevant, in that Gary has stated, and rightly, that what we are seeing in the Ukraine is exactly what is going on in the U.S., minus the use of physical force. A lot of “We the People” are being duped into believing the utopian ideas being put out by our current administration. obama is in office and that’s his 9 tenths of the law, as far as he is concerned, he has possession. Because he owns the senate he simply does as he chooses and knows there will be no consequences.
Peter, nicely put.
“That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”
“But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”
Have so many people decided to be selectively blind that they can see what’s happening in the Ukraine and become angry over it, but are unable to see the very same thing happening here and are completely oblivious?
We have one upside to our situation, the number of us who choose to see, is rising. May it be enough, before our time runs out.
Thanks for the compliment, but it was Thomas Jefferson who put it that way.
Since WWII the primary cause of brutal totalitarian governments around the world has been the United States. The issue in the Crimea is a good example.
The Crimea was given to Ukraine in the 1960s by Nikita Khrushchev. The people in the eastern portion of Crimea are mostly (but not entirely) ethnic Russians and Tatars.
So… does anybody have a good explanation of why the USA does not think that people have a natural right to to alter or to abolish their form of government, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Could it be that the USA has become the assassins and enforcers of totalitarianism who impose European style Authoritarian Socialist Democracy on people around the world?
The USA has objected and interfered with every ethnic population around the world that has tried to throw off foreign rulers and institute a government of their own choosing.
Maybe the citizens in the USA should hold a referendum on the principles that are espoused by the general population of the USA and decide if the Declaration of Independence and the other founding documents should be rescinded as no longer relevant to the aims and goals of the government of the USA.
Thanks for keeping this discussion going.
Here are more updates to keep us all up to date on Ukraine:
Today, Wednesday 3/12/14 Andriy Parubiy, secretary of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council, told reporters in Kiev that Russia has deployed more than 80,000 troops, up to 270 tanks and 140 combat planes close to the border, creating the “threat of a full-scale invasion from various directions,” the Associated Press reported.
Russia is of course denying the plot for any invasion of Ukraine.
Also today, interim Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk visited Washington on Wednesday to meet President Obama and enlist U.S. support in Ukraine’s standoff with Russia.
Obama warned Russia that the United States and its allies “will be forced to apply a cost” if Moscow does not end its incursion into Ukraine’s Crimea region and annexes the territory.
Calling Russia’s incursion into Crimea a violation of international law and the territorial integrity of Ukraine, Obama said the United States “will stand with Ukraine in ensuring that that territorial integrity and sovereignty is maintained.” Obama said: “We will continue to say to the Russian government that if it continues on the path that it is on, then not only the United States but the international community . . . will be forced to apply a cost to Russia’s violations of international law and its encroachments on Ukraine. There’s another path available, and we hope that President [Vladimir] Putin is willing to seize that path.”
Who knows what Obama will really do… But this is definitely something to watch.
I doubt Russia would have tried this under a United States President that was actually respected in foreign policy. The Russians are taking advantage of weakness in my opinion. We will see where it goes.
Here is a question for everybody – “How did Crimea become part of Ukraine in the first place? ”
On 19 February 1954, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union issued a decree transferring the Crimean Oblast from the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. The transfer of the Crimean Oblast to Ukraine has been described as a “symbolic gesture,” marking the 300th anniversary of Ukraine becoming a part of the Russian Empire. The General Secretary of the Communist Party in Soviet Union was at the time the Ukrainian Nikita Khrushchev.
Crimea has been part of Russia for longer than the USA has existed.
Soo… now the USA is making another war-torn area of strife, blight, and abyssal poverty so the politicians of the USA can continue to get USA citizens killed fighting for freedom?
Coffee Addict: “Russia is of course denying the plot for any invasion of Ukraine. ”
Has it occurred to you that the US government specializes in providing the citizens of the USA with disinformation and propaganda?
Could somebody please explain exactly why the US is involved in an internal matter in a foreign country (especially when self-government in the US is rapidly evaporating with the help of The Obama and his Obamite followers)?
The US has invaded a long list of countries that were going to attack, invade, occupy and take over the US: Korea, Viet Nam, Grenada, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, just to name a few – and now the USA is under threat of being invaded by Crimea?
Crimea is the same size as Massachusetts but it’s population is 1/3 the population of Massachusetts – and it is a threat to the safety, security and existence of the USA how?
The guilty fleeth where no man pursueth.
@Peter-t-burke very interesting and definitely a valid point to consider! I think my favorite part of your post was this sentence “Has it occurred to you that the US government specializes in providing the citizens of the USA with disinformation and propaganda?”
The media hasn’t mentioned anything about Ukraine’s past with Russia. They are simply discussing the outrage over out of control Russia! Trying to send all of us into a panic.
This is none of our business if you ask me. Although I am intrigued to know how this will affect Russia’s economy. The US and Europe are placing sanctions on Russia which should affect their economy, but in regards to Crimea specifically why does Russia want control over that land and its people? Is there some economic benefit? Every article i’ve found on the subject says annexing Crimea will prove to be costly for Russia.
Crimea is entirely integrated into Ukraine’s mainland economy and infrastructure. The peninsula only produces one-tenth of the energy it consumes. Ninety percent of its water, 80% of its electricity, and roughly 65% of its gas come from the rest of Ukraine. Russia has enough energy to supply power to Crimea, it’s lacking the infrastructure — there are not even any underwater cables though the Strait of Kerch, which separates Russia and Crimea.
Around 70% of Crimea’s $1.2 billion budget comes directly from Kiev.
Annexation of Crimea would be costly for Russia too because Crimea will need similar support, if not more, from Moscow. And while Russia’s economy is stable, it is not growing. Moscow recently announced it will invest between $5 billion and $6 billion in Crimea.
Does anyone have a different opinion on the economic effects for both Russia and Crimea?
I try to stay informed so it is necessary that I go to sources other than ones I know will not tell me the truth. I don’t mean to say that the US government is collectively a liar – that would require that they actually know the truth and deliberately say something else.
Collectively the US government is the worlds greatest source of bullshit. They say things without knowing for certain, or caring, whether what they say is true or not as long as what they say serves their purposes. Theirs are what is called “situational ethics” – e. g. their ethics are strictly dependent on the situation.
Most US news sources are about as reliable as Pravda.
I suggest Russia Today for news from Europe
Russia Today is far more reliable than most of the US sources which seem to either copy each other or pump out official US government bullshit propaganda.
I suggest La Nacion (Buenos Aires, Agentina) for news from South America.
I read both of these pretty much daily along with Fox news.
If you combine those sources with what ever you can get from the US you will get a pretty good picture of what is going on.
As far as Russia “fomenting” the issues in Ukraine goes I think that is just more silly propaganda from the US government. Crimea was made part of the Russian Empire around 1700. Crimea was amalgamated into Ukraine in the 1954 by Nikita Krushchev who was from a small village on the border between Russia and Ukraine. The ethnic Russians in Crimea have wanted to be out of Ukraine ever since.
Recall that the Russian fleet at Sevastopol has been there since before the USA came into existence. Currently there have been around 11,000 sailors and marines stationed there and about 40 warships making Sevastopol a major strategic base.
For all the talk of US mercenaries (NATO.inc) fighting a war there it can be seen that nothing has happened except His Most Enlightened Woosieness, The Obama got called on a typical empty threat. I find it hard to admit that the top military commander in the US is a wimp.
Nothing is going to happen as long as the US is run the way it is. Even when I was a kid in school I knew better than to do what Obama did in dealing with somebody like Putin.
Putin will continue a build-up near the border with Ukraine so he will have something to offer to get what he wants the US to provide. Gimme this, this, and that and I will pull my troops back from the appearance of impending invasion of Ukraine.
There are probably a dozen or so ethnic states that want independence from the country that currently holds them captive: Catalonia, Scotland, Venice, French Canada, the Bask region of Spain, just to name a few.
By the way Scotlands referendum for independence from England comes up mid September of this year (2014). Do you suppose The Obama is going to threaten the Faroe Islands with sanctions and possible military intervention if Scotland votes for independence and self rule?
You won’t hear about it in the US news given that the US is so clearly opposed to independence and self-rule.
@peter-t-burke great information in your posts on this thread. I appreciate the perspective. Thanks for the suggestions of other news sources I’ll definitely check them out.
@twocents as far as your question about why Russia would want Crimea, I think @Peter-T-Burke did a good job of answering. Crimea used to be a part of Russia and many of the people there were always for being a part of Russia. Also, building up their troops creates a situation where Russia can ask for things from the US government and Obama being a wimp will oblige.
Unfortunately, in the modern world the best way to make the USA look really bad is to tell the truth about what the USA is doing.
There was a time when you would have to lie about the USA to convince people that the USA was some sort of evil empire of scheming politicians but that is no longer required.
All that is required is to factually report the news surrounding the USA and it’s foreign and domestic policies and the USA will be shown to have become what it once opposed.
I am a Texan first and a citizen of the USA second. I am appalled by what the USA has become.
“All that is required for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.”
(Thomas Jefferson quoting Edmund Burke)
@twocents Lots of good thoughts but the issue also involves the guarantee from the US,Britain,France and RUSSIA in about 1996 when they became independent and for which the gave up their nuclear weapons (yes,I know ,they got them from Russia but all the same they had them)that their borders would be sacrosanct . Do we honor the committment? What does that tell other nations that either have or expect to have nuclear weapons about relying on treaties? Where does Russia stop? There are always reasons for these acts of aggression.I expect i know as much history of the area as any of you and the points are well taken but either treaties and security agreements mean something or they don’t.Russia had plenty of peaceful ways to go about reaching agreement with Crimea/Ukraine.It would have been time-consuming and might have been successful or not. Brute force ,while seeming to work,should alarm the world and so far the only result is empty words from The Obama. No surprise there but it’s VERY dangerous.
Gary, I don’t how critical we can be on Russia about not sticking to treaties, we don’t have such a great history of honoring treaties with our own, just ask our native Americans.
I will be the first to admit, I had to look up the word “sacrosanct”.
Our present regime does not respect our own borders as sacrosanct, why should he care about the borders of any other country?
If the US Government had been involved in the civil war between subjects of the English Crown that is commonly known as the “American Revolution” North America would still be a Crown Colony.
Lets try a comparative example: Massachusetts is about the size and population of Crimea. If 90+% of the voting population of Massachusetts voted for independence, would the people of the USA just say “They don’t have a right to self-government”?
The various people of the USA fought a civil war over this issue. One would think that the USA would have more respect for self-rule than it does.
Has “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,
–That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”
become just so much modern US bullshit? More empty words without substance from hypocritical and cynical social parasites?
Who made the treaties that legitimately and properly bound a captive nation to be the subject possession of an artificially constructed country?
There is a large percentage of us in Texas who are ardent supporters of secession from the USA because the government of the USA is destructive of our rights and does not rule with our consent. We at least get some notice more than the sort of dismissal applied to the issue of Crimea and we actually only represent a relatively small portion of the voting public in Texas.
I believe it should be very different when a clear majority of the subject people choose to announce their decision to pursue independence. At one time, a very long time ago the USA would have been the champion on the side of the people striving for freedom and self-rule. Unfortunately it seems that their only hope now is that Russia seems to be the only remaining country that has any respect for what was once the distinguishing mark of the USA.
So what comes next? Will the USA bomb Crimea into submission? How about Scotland? Or Quebec? or Ireland? The USA has become the greatest factory for oppressive government in the history of man.
A Treaty is a memorialization of an agreement between the signatory parties. In any sort of litigation regarding contracts I ask three question to begin with;
1) What authority did the parties to the contract have to entering to a binding agreement?”
2) Does any party to the contract have an impediment so significant that it would preclude or invalidate that party’s participation in the terms of the contract?
3) Was this contract entered into under any form of duress.
So who empowered the USA and its subject minions known as “NATO” to subject another country to dominion by anybody other than the people of that country?
It is interesting that the USA expects the entire world to capitulate to the drive of the USA to bring every nation in the world to heel under voluntary servitude to a ruling entity designated by the US government.
I feel as though this conflict is far from over. While the world has it’s eyes turned to the Middle East, Putin is making his move. Maybe you guys will have a different explanation but I have been reading the past week that Putin has been moving heavy artillery into Ukraine to the protestors supporting Ukraine becoming a part of Russia. Then there is this report about Putin moving 38,000 troops to the border and Ukraine is expecting and invasion. The mainstream media is pushing is on to the next story, Iraq. We cannot forget about Russia and Ukriane, or the VA, or illegal immigration. Jeez there is so much going on right now we can’t even address it all!
What do you think:
Here is the report: Ukraine Says Russia Has 38,000 Troops on Border Amid ‘Invasion’ – Bloomberg
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.