The political, social networking site that integrates politics with popular culture.
The political, social networking site that integrates politics with popular culture.

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Peter T. Burke @peter-t-burke

@thatdudeyoulike
@jack
@grand-vizier
@jlriggs57aol-com
@kevlar

I finally posted a discussion but I have no idea of how to publicize that fact so I figured I would knock on your door directly.

I would appreciate your opinions.

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James L. Riggs @jlriggs57aol-com

@peter-t-burke

As a country boy construction worker a good portion of what you said went right over my head. But if I caught the gist of it correctly, you basically said that even though the pay is higher now the value of the pay is less because the value of the tender did not keep up in value. Therefore what is being paid now has less value than the smaller amount that was paid in the past.

I almost confused myself.

As to the question, I would have to say that this is a matter of understanding economics at really, a higher level than most, including me, have an understanding.

I cannot speak to those who work in offices and have a higher education, but I feel fairly qualified to speak for those who work construction, machine shops, gas stations, etc. Most of us are worried about keeping a roof over our family’s head, food, a vehicle, gas, insurance and so forth and so on. Most of us have a high school diploma, GED, or made it through the grades to one point or another.

A wife, kids, mortgage, and all the rest that goes with this life is about as much as a person with a basic education, or less, can deal with.

We can easily say that any person should strive for higher education, but when you throw in the factors of intelligence level, finances, opportunity, etc., a lot of times it’s just not in the cards.

Understand, I am not insulting anyone. I also lack any higher education.

The answer to your question from my point of view is that for most of the people I come into contact with in my life, they would have to have a class in economics to understand all the variables in your equation.

If I misunderstood the main body of your discussion, it would not surprise me, but please let me know where my thinking lead me astray.

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Gary @grand-vizier

@ peter.t.burke
@kevlar
@jlriggs57aol-com
@jack
@twocents

Bravo !

I deal in different values since my labor is measured in the value of products I invest in,manufacture,invent etc. but its the same story.
Among other things, I buy land, plan a project,take the leaseup risk and hold the property till it is well seasoned and then perhaps I sell it.
Over the years I often find that although I can sell the property for more than it cost me I cannot replace the property with property of equal desireability with the porceeds because the additional money I recieved was in inflated dollars so I actually lost purchasing power and furthermore I am taxed on the additional dollars even though they are worth less than the original amount in actual buying power.
The Government inflates the currency and taxes the resulting additional NUMBER of dollars thereby robbing the holder both ways.
The point of all this explaination is that it is NOT just the people who work providing labor that are being robbed,EVERYONE is being robbed who is a producer,either by their labor or by their investments.
In the investors case it my be worse.
If I invest and lose thats too bad,I take the loss. if I win my partner,the Government takes their share.
For those who complain that investors get a capital gains rate I relate this TRUE story.
A plumbing contractor made that complaint to me so I made him this offer.
On the next building he could contribute his labor and that of his crew as well as all material and other costs and I would give him the percentage of ownership those items were in relation to the money I put in. I would pay him the same as me,NOTHING.
Then if and when we were able to lease the building and subsequently sell it at a profit we would split the proceeds according to our percentage of ownership.
If it took longer than expected to lease and sell he would be responsible for additional capital calls if needed.
If leasing was unsuccessful we would share in all loses prorata.
If he had to sell or mortgage his house,borrow from banks or friends,live on credit cards for a time or go bankrupt that also is part of the deal.Same as me.
Or he could get paid on the first and the fifteenth like allways.
Subject never came up again.
Reagan said it; Government is not the solution to economic success.
It is the problem.
Peter is telling it like it is.
A Government that debases it’s money is stealing from it’s people.
Lowering taxes is but a minior piece of the puzzle,its spending borrowed money and printing more money to cover it that is the true cost and theft.
Why don’t the people demand an end to that practice?
Easy,most are not smart enough to figure it out and its like cooking a frog.
Put the Frog in a pan of cold water and turn the stove on low.
By the time the Frog realizes whats up he’s cooked. Just like us.
The frog would leap out of hot water otherwise.
The hope is that with the internet ,Volkalize and all the other sources now at the publics beck and call the word will spread and this condition can change.
By the way,
Taking gold and adjusting for inflation it has not been such a great deal either.
Its lost 39% in the last year or so and going back ten or twenty years ,adjusting for inflation there have been much better investments.
As for silver it must be 40 or so years ago when the Government stopped exchanging silver certificates for silver at about $7/oz.
I saved up $1,000 in silver certificates and bought silver for the $7/oz. It went up to about $29/oz. Hurrah I was making money!!
Compare the price today to what a dollar was worth 40 years ago.
And it was HEAVY.

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Peter T. Burke @peter-t-burke

@jlriggs57aol-com
@grand-vizier

So – here is my question and topic – why don’t the people in the USA hold their elected government to account for what has been done to them? The people who work (trade their time for money) have been robbed of their wealth just the same as if I went into their houses and took their valuables, yet there is no public outrage. Why?

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James L. Riggs @jlriggs57aol-com

@peter-t-burke
@grand-vizier

From my end, the reason they don’t revolt is because they don’t know that the issue exists.

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Gary @grand-vizier

@jlriggs57aol-com
@peter.t.burke
That’s why I told the Frog cooking story!
I also have no higher formal education. Joined the Navy before I was 18.Off I went!
Read EVERYTHING I take an interest in and I’m interested in lots of things.
Let’s try to spread the information to those less curious.
Peter,the Government doesn’t even have to go to their houses.
They do it from afar with printing presses,automatic deductions and fear of the IRS.
I DONT EVEN THINK THE PRESS HAS TO COLUDE ,
The press is like the Frog on this !
There’s no headline,it happens slowly over time and damn few reporters are smart or patient enough to follow thru.
I also doubt they read much Milton Friedman !

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James L. Riggs @jlriggs57aol-com

@grand-vizier
@peter.t.burke

Milton Friedman? Isn’t he the guy that made the Monopoly game? :)

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Peter T. Burke @peter-t-burke

I haven’t responded before because I didn’t know anybody had commented on this issue. I figured No Comments = No Interest.

@grand-vizier

Gary;
The “wages” and “labor” issue is a diversion that the Progressives promote in order to misdirect everybody’s understanding of exchanges of money for time.

There are only two things that someone can trade for money; their time or their creative expressions.

If you toil away alone in the dark and create something that has intrinsic value to another person you don’t get paid until there is an exchange of value. Time is not a consideration. Picasso, Beethoven, and the like come to mind.

If you are the CFO of a corporation you get paid for your time just as surely as the worker who sweeps the floor does. You just get paid for doing something different with your time.

People who pay for time (time buyer) do so because they want to exchange something of value to have another person (time seller) do something that the buyer either cannot do or does not want to do. It is immaterial whether that is raking leaves, designing an passenger airliner, or managing a truck stop kitchen. Bill Ford got paid for his time running Ford Motor Company just the same as Jose got paid for cleaning up the flower beds around the Ford Motor Company headquarters. Just a different amount because Jose had not accumulated the same skill set that Bill Ford did.

If a person wants to sell their time for a higher price they improve what they are offering by adding skill sets or enhancing natural abilities.

@jlriggs57aol-com
@thatdudeyoulike
@jack
@kevlar

Money is used to facilitate the exchanges. Generally money is a material thing that represents stored value. Gold and silver have been used as money for millenia. Currency is what ever is being used to represent money. Currency is what ever is current. The US Federal Reserve Note is certainly currency but it is not money because it has no stored intrinsic value. The US Federal Reserve Note is worth what the US Government says it is worth and it is worth that for how ever long the government say it is. That is why it is referred to as “fiat” currency. It’s value is based on the fiat of some authority.

When the US Constitution was written it included a provision for minting “gold and silver” coins and the rate of silver to gold was set at 16 to 1. By 1970 (nearly two hundred years later) the silver to gold rate was 35 to 1. Gold was $35 an ounce and that $35 was 35 silver dollars so the rate is 35 to1.

Today the US currency is a fiat currency with nothing “backing it up” or in other words: it has no intrinsic stored value. If the government says it is worth $0 then it is worth zero.

Today it takes $20 Federal Reserve Notes to purchase on silver coin so logically gold should be somewhere around 35 or so time $20 per ounce. That would mean gold should be selling for around $700 an ounce.

Gold is currently selling at a steep premium (probably due to people lack of trust of the US Federal Reserve Note) so it is selling for around $1,200. That is a rate of 60 to 1 which is a long way from reasonable.

A Roman Centurion was paid around 3 ounces of gold in value each month. A US Army lieutenant gets paid around $3,000 (in Federal Reserve Notes) a month which amounts to about 3 ounce of gold each month. Things haven’t changed all that much since Julius was running Rome. There are literally thousands of examples like this that show that the cost of goods priced in gold hasn’t changed much.

This can also be extended to the value of time. It takes just so much time to earn sufficient money or currency to pay for food, clothing, and shelter.

When the economy of a country is based on gold and silver exchange rates the wealth of the country is in the pockets of the people who earn the money.

When the economy of a country is based on a fiat currency the wealth of the country is in the hands of the people who are the government of the country.

By purchasing silver certificates from the US citizens with Federal Reserve Notes and then allowing the value of those Federal Reserve Notes to go from 1 Federal Reserve Note for 1 ounce of silver certificate to 20 Federal Reserve Notes for 1 ounce of silver the government ripped the citizens off by 95% of value.

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Jack @jack

@thatdudeyoulike
@peter-t-burke
@grand-vizier
@jlriggs57aol-com
@kevlar

@peter-t-burke

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems that you are suggesting a return to the gold standard by the federal government. While there are many advantages to that, some of which you have outlined, there are two major problems with a return to the gold standard:

1.) The US federal government doesn’t have enough gold to pay back its creditors, let alone anyone on earth who happens to have a dollar,
and
2.) The gold standard severely limits the federal reserve’s ability to keep the price of the dollar stable.

We see the effects of a lack of a federal reserve-esque system in the new online currency, Bitcoin. The largest effect has been incredible volatility in the value of the currency. Bitcoin could be the perfect study of what would happen to the US dollar if we were to remove the federal reserve system.

Just like the US dollar, Bitcoin is a “fiat” currency; that is, one with no “hard” money(like gold or silver) backing its value. The only difference (besides scale of use, of course) is that the USD has a regulating authority that can make more money indefinitely, and Bitcoin does not. It will be an interesting (and potentially costly to investors) study of a reserve-less economic system. I personally predict that it will crash and burn fairly quickly.

So how does that relate to the US returning to a gold standard?

If we return to a gold standard, then the federal reserve will lose a good deal of regulatory power over the US economy. A well managed fiat economy is a very good way to keep inflation down. Good decisions by the fed allow for inflation to be curbed regardless of the current price of gold. If the federal reserve loses regulatory power, financial crises would be even worse as well. According to Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman, without the Fed’s intervention, a “powerful deflationary force would have been created. Without the intervention of the Fed it is possible the 2008 crash could have led to another Great Depression. If we return to the gold standard, the fed loses the power to intervene and lighten the blow of crises.

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Peter T. Burke @peter-t-burke

@jack
@thatdudeyoulike
@grand-vizier
@jlriggs57aol-com
@kevlar

Jack;
I am finally back in Texas and free for a short while. My apologies for the delay.

A. Federal Reserve – I don’t agree that the Federal Reserve, which was a device of the Progressive movement, should exist at all. The current state of US financial affairs is a direct result of the Federal Reserve.

B. The Cross of Gold argument is pretty much worn out. I do support bimetallism as a currency but I am not a a gold bug – the 1929 crash is proof that an unrestrained gold standard is a road to many disasters.

Your arguments:

1.) The US federal government doesn’t have enough gold to pay back its creditors, let alone anyone on earth who happens to have a dollar,

Response: Everyone on earth who has a dollar is a creditor of the US Government. The Federal Reserve note is an NSF check issued on an zero balance account. There is no possibility of redeeming the dollars already issued so there is going to have to be a massive change.
How about a devaluation like Argentina? The Federal Reserve can just announce that the currency is revalued at 100:1. It is a fiat currency and that is a simple matter of Executive Order. A $100 dollar note is replaced by the US Treasury by a new $1 note.
The US could do overprints on the currency that is being printed currently – just print a black line through the two zeros. Done!
What do you suppose life in the US is going to be like if all the people who hold dollars outside the US decide to repatriate them?

2.) The gold standard severely limits the federal reserve’s ability to keep the price of the dollar stable.

Response: If the Federal Reserve dollar is stable why is there a problem? Stable compared to what – gold? Silver? A Federal Reserve dollar will buy you about 5% of a silver dollar – how is that stable?

“According to Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman, without the Fed’s intervention, a “powerful deflationary force would have been created. Without the intervention of the Fed it is possible the 2008 crash could have led to another Great Depression. If we return to the gold standard, the fed loses the power to intervene and lighten the blow of crises. If we return to the gold standard, the fed loses the power to intervene and lighten the blow of crises.”

First – that would be the same Nobel Prize that Obama got? I am most favorably unimpressed.

Second – Paul Krugman is a useful idiot. People in academia are net tax consumers who depend on the government for their existence. Krugman has always sounded like an idiot to me because it is obvious he has never had to survive from his own production. I don’t feed off the government so his net tax consumer nonsense is meaningless to me.

The Great Depression was not caused by a financial crash and the 2008 financial conditions are not related to the conditions of the Great Depression.

The Great Depression was a culmination of the failures of agricultural methods. The drought, disease and insect issues ( like wheat rust, corn smut – anthrax, red water, brucellosis – boll weevil) threw the US agricultural world back about 400 years. production dropped to nothing – but that was 1932.

The Stock market crash was in 1929 and caused by unrestrained equity lending against homes and farms and the loan proceeds were used to buy gold on margin.
That was a disaster then and would be now also.

The real comparison is the Long Depression which was triggered by the Union government being obliged to redeem the fiat currency they issued to finance their war against the US citizens in the Southern part of the US.

In the US, from 1873–1879, 18,000 businesses went bankrupt, including hundreds of banks, and ten states went bankrupt,while unemployment peaked in 1878, long after the panic ended. Different sources peg the peak unemployment rate anywhere from 8.25% to 14%.

Just think what the unemployment would be today if the “unemployed” were counted today the same as they were in 1873 ( citizens who had a job but don’t have one now)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Depression

The current issue is a financial problem – we have too many net tax consumers and I feel like I am the only net tax payer in the US. I am a net tax paying prime producer.

I work to encourage the growth of grass and I use cows as a means of converting sunlight to steak. I am a grass farmer. Nobody is upstream of me.

I will exchange a cow with you on a Quid Pro Quo basis. You can put a string around her neck and take her out my gate with you. I will also sell her to you in pieces but I am going to want more Quo for your Quid.

I didn’t invent the grass, the sunlight, or the cows. I take natural resources and use my time to turn them into a form that has value to you. If you eat grass and vegetable only you probably have no interest in what I am offering in exchange for Quo. So be it.

I can only gouge you for so much value for the sizzle and smell of the roast beef before you just walk away and find someone else who will exchange his Quid for less of your Quo – so I tell you that my cows have pedigrees and came over on the Mayflower to find a land where they could be at liberty to eat the grass of their choice. Whatever it takes to get you to give me more Quo for my Quid. I’ll ever hire a baseball player to tell you how good my cows are.

The government seized control of this process and inserted a fiat token for value. That token is one that the Federal Rulers control. That process is good for them – they don’t have to work for a living. They can just lean back and harvest a percentage of the Quo gathered by the people who are not part of the Federal Rulers Government Class.

My issue is not to return to a gold standard. I am already on a gold standard. I will take payment in gold much quicker than I will take the Federal Rulers Monopoly money.

If gold is $1,200 federal reserve notes (USD) per ounce I will exchange my Quid for your gold at a rate determined as the total price minus the total tax load and minus the storage cost of the Federal Rulers Monopoly money as long as there is no exchange of documentation.
My rate is 4.5 for 10. So a $1,200 (USD) cow goes for 4.5 oz (Troy) of 3 9s gold instead of 1.0 oz of 3 9s gold. I will take 3 9s silver but it is currently exchanging at 60:1. This means that a $1,200 (USD) cow will be exchanged for $540 (USD) if payment is a simple exchange of gold for cow.

How has the Federal Reserve benefited the US in any way? A loaf of bread in 1946 was one silver dime. Today you can still buy that loaf of bread for one silver dime because a silver dime brings $2.00 USD. The only player in the system who is not getting Quid pro Quo that is proportional is the person who is not a prime producer or is not a net tax payer.

When the country is on a standard of currency that has intrinsic value (gold, silver, platinum, diamond, etc.) the wealth of the country is in the pockets of the citizens.

When the country is on a fiat currency the wealth of the country is in the accounts of the government and the companies that own the value-added production system.

The US is in the exact same place as the Union government following the US North-South war. I can see what happened to the South when the Union government had to redeem the “Greenback”.

What do you suppose is going to be the solution for the current situation?

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Jack @jack

@thatdudeyoulike
@grand-vizier
@jlriggs57aol-com
@kevlar

@peter-t-burke

Actually, Obama won the peace prize, while Krugman won the prize in economics. So no, it is not technically the same prize. However, even if you aren’t a fan of President Obama, the Nobel Prize is still one of the highest honors in our society.

About Net Tax Consumers and Net Taxpayers-
Those are (to me) relatively vague terms. I think I have summed them up in these two synonyms:

Net Tax Consumers = Anyone who receives money directly from the government (Like politicians, and government employees) or indirectly from the government (government contractors).

Net Tax Payers = Anyone who pays taxes on their income from a private sector job.

Based on my interpretation of what you said (especially about you thinking that you are the only Net Tax payer in all of America), I don’t believe that there are too many Net Tax consumers, considering that public sector jobs are just 15% of our economy. That leaves 85%(plus or minus some exceptions) of our US economy to be tax payers. That being said, there could be an improvement in the priorities of our government when hiring. Less of an emphasis on military industrial hiring would be beneficial in my book. Hiring Police officers (I know the same level of government doesn’t hire both, but I’m just using them as an example) would be a better use of money, for example.

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James L. Riggs @jlriggs57aol-com

@jack
@thatdudeyoulike
@grand-vizier
@kevlar
@peter-t-burke

Jack, this conversation has gone way above my education in economics, so this post is not about the discussion at hand.

As most know, I am not an obama fan. I just find it a bit incredulous that for someone who has the worst foreign policy than any president I can remember and who also has lost the faith of nearly the entirety of this country, I find it ironic that he won a “Peace” prize.

But, you can’t change history, he did win it. (hard facepalm)

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Peter T. Burke @peter-t-burke

@jack
@thatdudeyoulike
@grand-vizier
@jlriggs57aol-com
@kevlar

Jack,
I do like that you share your take on these issues – thank you! I also don’t agree but Oh Well!

A “net tax payer” is somebody who has a balance due to pay to the system after the value of all benefits received is tallied up. Government is nothing more than an additional burden on me and consumes a portion of the results of my labors and yet like a tick does nothing for me in return. I pay more in taxes than the sum of all of the value of any benefit that I might receive. I could easily hire out any of the benefits of government that I get at a far cheaper price (probably close to a 50% cost reduction with around a 100% increase in quality of service).

As an example police officers are a dead waste of money in my opinion. They serve no useful function that me and the hands who work for me can’t do far better and far faster than they are willing to even try to do. Where I live 65 cents out of every local property tax dollar is consumed by the public school system which serves to prepare local children for institutional life.
The cops have been sucking up money and claiming to fight or deter crime yet drugs are far more common now than they were before the cops got involved.

A “net tax consumer” is someone who receives more in tax funds and benefits than the sum of what they pay into the system.
A person who receives a tax sourced payment who then claims to be a “tax payer” is a fraud. It is pure humbug to claim that taking a cut in an imaginary wage amount to make it appear as if the person was actually contributing to the system is just disingenuous.

These terms are pretty common among people who are being forced to foot the bill for the system.

Currently the estimate is that only around 47% of the people who file a tax return are net tax payers by any stretch of the imagination.

Every person – cop, teacher, border patrol, welfare recipient, prison inmate, prison guard and all the rest of the people who live on tax sourced funds are net tax consumers. Their payment of taxes is just creative accounting.

The reality is that most “private sector” workers could not afford to pay the cost of the “public services” they consume. The “private sector” worker does not intend to game the system but the current methods of public administration was known in past days as “feather bedding”. Public schools, law enforcement, Court system, prisons and jails, roads and bridges, postal system, and the like. Just think of how many people in your area work in exchange for tax money.

I am not at all impressed by “honors” that someone gets for playing the game. I am happy for them that they enjoy standing around patting each other on the back for the things they claim to have done that deserve a medal.

I am impressed by results. The effective unemployment rate in the US stands at around 20% if you count unemployment in the same manner it was counted during the past 150 in the US – people who had a job but are no longer gainfully employed not just people who are receiving a tax funded check.
I would be very impressed to see that number back to the 4% -6% that was the norm before The Obama and his Obamites began the final transition of the US into a European-style socialist democracy.

I guess I just get annoyed at the extra work that it creates for me to have to go through the contortions to circumvent the issues created by a bloated grasping gang of blood sucking ticks who offer me nothing in return. I do know that the US is not going to change but I can’t help but long for the days long gone by.

I grew up around working men who worked the Texas border in the 1910s, 20s,30s, 40s, 50s, who were confounded by the 1960s. I can still remember some of them saying that nobody would be stupid enough to let some politician decide what is right or wrong for them. (I would what they would say about The Obama and his Obamites)

Let me know if you want to continue this rabbit trail.

The actual original subject was the transfer of wealth from the people to the government.

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Jack @jack

@peter-t-burke

Police officers are a waste of money? Just because you can afford to pay for your own private protection doesn\’t mean that everyone can.

About unemployment:

I assume you are talking about the U-6 unemployment rate, which, as the bureau of labor defines it, is \”Total unemployed, plus all persons marginally attached to the labor force, plus total employed part time for economic reasons, as a percent of the civilian labor force plus all persons marginally attached to the labor force\”. Sorry, but that number stands a whole 6.9% less than the 20% you claim- at 13.1%. That 13.1%, is less than Bush\’s last month in office, when it was 14.2% (January before Obama\’s inauguration). That of course is during the period that Bush\’s god awful economic policies started to take their toll. (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/14/blaming-obama-for-george-w-bushs-policies/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0) This article backs me up here.

Thus unemployment is not the fault of “Obama and his Obamites”.

Obama\’s a socialist? I think not.
The stocks are breaking records, and unemployment is going down steadily. Our economy is growing.
President Barrack Obama? The worst socialist in the history of socialists.

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Peter T. Burke @peter-t-burke

@jack
@thatdudeyoulike
@grand-vizier
@jlriggs57aol-com
@kevlar

Jack,

“Police officers are a waste of money? Just because you can afford to pay for your own private protection doesn’t mean that everyone can.”

The fact that I can afford to buy some police officers does not do anything good for my neighbors who cannot afford to buy some cops even when they are on sale.

A few of my neighbors actually pay taxes and still don’t get anything of value from the government they are paying to support. The largest number of my neighbors are net tax consumers who like other net tax consumers contribute nothing.

No I am not talking about the current method of computing the “unemployment” statistics (i.e. the U6 calculations of convenience) I am talking about real unemployment as it was counted up to the present era.
I am aware of the U6 numbers put out to make the situation look as if it is somehow magically getting better. That is my point – “Figures don’t lie but liars sure can figure”.

Stocks are breaking records? That is correct. Stocks are hitting record high prices for the same stock.

Is it a good thing that the meat in your grocery store goes to record high prices? Does that show a “recovering economy”? I don’t think anyone would think that record high prices with no expansion in the number of equities offered for sale means that the economy is recovering (well, maybe The Obamites would have people believe they do).

When the prices are increasing without a change in value it is normally viewed as “inflated prices” not “economic recovery”.

If unemployment is going down why does The Obama and the Obamites claim there is a need for extended unemployment benefits?

Profile photo of Jack
Jack @jack

@peter-t-burke

Your government does nothing for you? That’s really interesting, because the very internet you are using to say “The government does nothing for me” was in fact an ARPA project, funded by *government* money. So by creating the infrastructure for sites such as this to be created, the government has actually done something for you. (http://www.gartner.com/it-glossary/arpanet-advanced-research-projects-agency-network)

Surprising, isn’t it?

It seems like the government does things in real life, too. They pave the roads we all drive on. They defend our country. They ensure order. The list goes on and on.

That government that just sucks your tax dollars and gives nothing back? It doesn’t exist. You may not like what it is doing, but we have mechanisms to ensure that it does. They just do what we tell them to. Its part of the whole “democracy” thing.

About unemployment:
You do not acknowledge the unemployment numbers that we all acknowledge, and rely on to be accurate. You also speak of some other way that unemployment was counted. “Real unemployment”, you call it. I would like to see more about this “real unemployment” number you so often reference, yet have not defined. Is it an official number put out by anyone with the authority to do so (i.e government agency, third party economic firm,etc)? Or is it an original calculation?

About unemployment benefits:
Something improving ≠ something fixed.
You wouldn’t stop taking medicine for a disease just because it is getting better. You take the full, prescribed dosage, or the symptoms return.

About Stocks:
You must follow a very different theory of economics than me, because good corporate profits are always a good sign for a rebounding economy. Companies that post good, improving profits have their stock bought. When there is a lot of demand for a product, and a limited quantity, prices go up. This is basic supply and demand. Thus higher stock prices = better corporate profits = better economy.

This link helps explain (http://money.howstuffworks.com/10-signs-the-economy-is-improving.htm#page=10).

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Brian @irie-brian

@jlriggs57aol-com
@thatdudeyoulike
@jack
@peter-t-burke
@grand-vizier

Peter, Thank you so much for the historical insight of the golden standard and the process of inflation. You make me want to spend all of my money.

I want to address your question…

Peter’s Question:
Why don’t the people in the USA hold their elected government to account for what has been done to them?

It seems, many of us have a lot to say about what our elected government is doing to us, we can point the finger, but how do we hold them accountable? What should we do about it? Punching them out won’t do anything (though, some wish for the chance). We can talk about it, point out faults and demand change; how do we demand a change in policy? I believe we will eventually fix the wrongs sewn in our system through weeding out bad representation. Where do we start? We are in Deep.

I think our only hope is your idea (if i understood correctly), to re establish our dollars value based on our countries tangible assists, allow our 100 dollar note crash to a penny if it has to, then rebuild the value of the dollar the True American way, through hard work and productivity!

I will leave with three ‘supposed’ Thomas Jefferson Quotes that I think help to depict why our society is in such a mess and why I think we citizens haven’t yet done enough to fix it.

“When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe.”
— Thomas Jefferson
(People are distracted in corruption, with a 15 second attention span)

“The democracy will cease to exist when you
take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.”
— Thomas Jefferson

“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property – until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”
— Thomas Jefferson

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Jack @jack

@irie-brian

There is one very simple way to hold our politicians accountable. It may take a whole day, but it is the most basic of your duties as an American Citizen. I am talking of course about voting. You need only pull a few levers on a machine or press a few buttons and your opinions will be officially recorded, and used to help determine who leads us all.

This should be very obvious, but it seems to be overlooked.

About rebuilding the economy:
Would it really be worth it to “let the 100 Dollar note crash to a penny if it has to”?

I’m gonna say no, it’s not worth it.

To allow the dollar to crash to that extent is suicide for our country. People would be rioting in the streets, states would secede left and right, and everything our forefathers fought for would be wasted. Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if the British came and took back North America.

The truth is even if we wanted to return to a gold/bimetallic standard, we couldn’t do it. As I said before, the US doesn’t have enough gold/silver to pay back those who need paying back, from the Chinese to a foreigner travelling to America. Without the gold, talk of a return of the gold/bimetallic standard is a pipe dream.

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Brian @irie-brian

@jack

If you think voting is the best way to hold people in power accountable, than you obviously do not get the point. The question is how do we hold the politicians “Us fools” voted into power accountable for the bad policy they place on us. How do we hold those that are representing America accountable for letting Our credit rating get so bad.

MAybe re-adjusting our dollar to its actual value could make too great of potential for foriegn investment to come into AMerica. However I think that not paying back debt is unacceptable and if this is our only option, we could make it work.

Let me explain my idea more, (I may be way off, but give me a shot)
$1,000,000 becomes $1,000
$100 becomes $
instead of adjusting currency to world rate, we adjust our dollar to its actual value, instead of inflating the dollar.

Therefore, the guys left with 1 thousand dollars are some of the richer Americans.
With that, their million dollar home is now $1,000.
People wages, are low.. those who used to get $10 bucks an hour are getting 10 cents..
But where I feel this can work is… Food will be cents to buy, The penny will actually have high value.. The whole world will want to buy our products, because their dollar is worth more, thus they can buy more if buying from America.
AMerica we gaines position of suppliers rather than consumers, than slowly we ammas more dollars and AMerica rebuilds itself as a Super Power.

None of this means we can not defend ourself from forign threat, we can still maintain a military, have citizen militias. best of all you can get strapped up for a few bucks..

@jlriggs57aol-com
@thatdudeyoulike
@jack
@peter-t-burke
@grand-vizier

*Please do not tell me it would not work, tell me why it would not work and help me patch the holes.. I do not know a lot about economics and this idea is real abstract… basically more becomes less, then we get more for less, it will take hard work but looking at AMerica’s history, we are the kind of hard workers who can pull it off. (still dreaming)

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