The cross opponents have been trying to get rid of the cross for years.
It’s still there but untold amounts of time and money have been spent that could have gone to actual good use.
I am not religious but I am not bothered at all by it being there.
The entire episode disgusts me.
The anti -religion proponents have completely lost my support not only for this but almost anything else they propose.
No matter how it turns out it was a stupid waste of resources as far as I am concerned.
It was there long before the the country accepted the agnostics position as legitimate.
Leave it be.
Find an actual outrage to fight over.
Yesterday, (12/12/13) U.S. District Judge Larry Burns ordered that the cross, which honors Veterans, on Mount Soledad in San Diego, California should be removed within 90 days. If the decision is appealed, the decision will be put on hold until a ruling is given from the United States Supreme Court. The first legal battle over the cross began in 1954 and has bounced between jurisdictions since.
The cross went up in 1952 as a war memorial and overlooks San Diego county, as well as beautiful Ocean views of the La Jolla, Pacific beach and Mission Beach areas. The memorial is routinely used for social gatherings such as tours, Easter Egg hunts, two major memorial day services, and events to honor service members throughout the year.
Currently over 3,300 plaques honoring Veterans on the original six Memorial Walls. Five new walls were recently constructed which will accommodate an additional 2,400 plaques.
The land the cross sits on was transferred from city of San Diego ownership to the federal government in 2005 in response to the threat of it being taken down under a court order.
In 2006 another lawsuit was filed by the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of the Jewish Veterans of the United States of American and several other Southern California residents arguing that displaying a cross on federal lands is unconstitutional.
Burns ruled initially in 2008 that the cross could stay, but the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals overturned the decision three years later, saying the cross sent a message that the government endorsed Christianity and therefore violated the establishment clause of the U.S. Constitution, which prohibits government endorsement of religion.
Charles LiMandri, an attorney for the Mount Soledad Memorial Association, said “Unless the U.S. Supreme Court denies review or takes it and finds it unconstitutional, that cross isn’t going anywhere,” LiMandri said. “At that point, we’ll go to Congress. We’re not giving up.”
“We support the government paying tribute to those who served bravely in our country’s armed forces,” said Daniel Mach, director of the ACLU Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief. “But we should honor all of our heroes under one flag, not just one particular religious symbol.”
What do you think? Especially those of you living in San Diego, California.
From a personal perspective do you think the cross should be removed?
From a legal perspective, do you think the cross should be allowed to stay or should be removed?
Do you think this is an issue of importance?
Should the federal government be involved in the decision?
The cross opponents have been trying to get rid of the cross for years.
This country was founded on Christian beliefs and Christian values. Were all the founding fathers good examples of Christian teachings? No, but the belief system was still part of them. We, as a country, have thrived and done well under this system of belief, but as time passes we are not only seeing more atheistic views being pushed to the forefront, it seems those that hold to these views feel the need to attack Christianity and those who claim it.
The Ten Commandments have been deemed unfit to be shown in many public places.
Dixie County Courthouse, Florida. 2006
Pine Haven Elementary School in Jamestown, Tenn. 2012
Cross had to be removed from water tower. Whiteville, Tenn. 2011
There is a group called The Freedom From Religion Foundation who not only don’t want to have religion in their lives but doesn’t want anyone else to have it in theirs.
Isn’t it funny that one of the things this country was founded on was the Freedom OF Religion, now they want to take it away from us.
I do not tell atheists that they must be religious why do they feel the need to say that we must be non-religious?
If the majority of the townspeople in a given town want to have a cross on their water tower or the ten commandments in any of their buildings, including government buildings, why should they have to remove them because some outside organization takes them to court? These people don’t even live in these towns. Why would a judge even care what the outsiders say as long as the majority of the town wants, whatever religious symbol or symbols, to be displayed.
We are allowing too many things like this to happen and our government not only allows it they endorse it.
As a Christian there is much more I would like to say here but I won’t and it’s because of a verse from the Bible.
James 1:19, …………….be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger.
It is my understanding that as you said above James, we have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.
I live in San Diego and I think the cross is beautiful, its a historic landmark and its been there all my life. I am not particularly religious, but that is because I have no studied the Bible, Torah, Quran, or any other religious texts in depth to consider myself able to put my faith in it. I do believe in something greater than myself, I just don’t know what it is yet. I am 23 so maybe throughout my life I will discover something other than a “higher power” to put my faith in.
For me, I don’t understand why people choose to fight on either side for this issue. As I said I am not particularly religious and it doesn’t bother me. I feel like its been there for so long just leave it, why spend the money to try to get others to have to spend the money to take it down. As Gary said, its a waste or resources that could be better spend on more important initiatives in my opinion.
I think people need to prioritize whats really important and worth fighting over. Just leave the cross alone, let it stand there as it has for decades.
When you decide you are interested in looking into religion, as a piece of advice, if I may be so bold, look at the facts as they pertain to things like the big bang, the primordial ooze, and evolution. Often these have been ingrained in us so thoroughly that we block faith until we see the fallacies in the science of the issue.
As you are a thinking person I believe you will find the same type of information I found, which lead me to drop the beliefs I held for so long.
Since I’m not here to do a sermon, I’ll just say, have a great day.
לא יהיה־לך אלהים אחרים על־פני
“Thou shalt have no other gods before me”
– 1st Commandment, Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) Exodus 20:3
“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.” Quoth Jesus or Nazareth – Matthew 22:35 (New Testament)
These are the fundamentals of Christian thought. Most people of religious birth hear these commands in nursery school or Sunday School by age five. Often these have been ingrained in us so thoroughly that we block reason until we mature to see the fallacies of childish beliefs in supernatural beings.
This country was founded upon secular principals and NOT Christian values. The founding fathers were Secular Humanists of the Enlightenment who embraced the scientific method and questioned supernatural beliefs. They knew full well the dangers of intolerance and bigotry, having immigrated from the Old World. They feared Kings who claimed divine right of god and became tyrants, and designed our foundational law to protect us from such folly. Thus, the Founders designed our Constitutional Law and Bill of Rights, to insure that we never fall under such totalitarian rule, and avoid the trap of appeals to divine authority.
We, as a country, have thrived and done well under our system of secular pluralism, but as time passes we are not only seeing more fundamentalists views being pushed to the forefront, it seems those that hold to these views feel the need to attack our institutions of shared government and infiltrate our military and education systems.
As a nation, we must not allow this country to fall under the influence of religious fundamentalists. Given our access to WMD, and the influence of our economics on the environment of the planet, those who hold faith in the “End Times” supposition, in hopes of a ‘second coming’, are an existential threat, not just to our democracy, but to the world. This danger can not be overstated.
The cross is a symbol, and thus it’s meaning is held in the mind of the beholder. For me, as for many others, the cross is a symbol of oppression. Christian Conservatives have always used their faith as an excuse to divide people and attack others. Wether burning crosses in the American South or using the Christian Bible to justify slavery, crusading against Muslim peoples or forcing their Christian beliefs upon ‘heathens’ through colonization by ‘Manifest Destiny’ in an empire of evangelical denominations, the Christian have always been a cancer upon our land.
The church is a political institution, designed to instal a hierarchal autocracy that taxes our labor and promises salvation, indoctrinating the young, to expand its cultish flock. When I see this cross upon a hill, I see a lower-case “t” of death, where unbelievers are threatened with human-sacrifice. The symbol is a not so subtle reminder of the dominant culture, where if you do not comply, the ghosts of these military soldiers will be sent to take you to heaven.
As an atheist, working in the public sector, I’ve often been denied promotions and ostracized from jobs when my supervisors learn I lack their type of faith. Simply by announcing my belief in REASON as the best path to truth, those who lack reason will attack and alienate me, unable to trust those who will not pretend to share their supernatural morality.
Replace the cross with our American Flag.
This CROSS on Mt. Soledad is a remnant of a time of suppression, when undesirables, like Jews and Blacks, were to be kept out of the enclaves of wealth, a tradition that persists today in La Jolla, and across America. This cross is embedded in a memorial to WAR, to justify the questionable actions of our armies across time.
In these United States of America, you are free to believe what you wish, but you are not free to impose those beliefs upon others, especially under color of authority in our common spaces. We have FEEDOM OF AND FROM RELIGION, because we have learned from the mistakes of history and seek to live in peace, inviting immigrants who share our values, without treat of conversion to a state sponsored religion.
As an American Citizen, I bow my head to no King. I acknowledge no authority greater than my own. America was conceived in a revolution against religious intolerance, and has evolved into a diverse land of rational secular pluralism, to return to the dark days of state sponsored theocracy is not an option.
I think it is appropriate that, as we express ourselves through symbols, we remember our shared commitment to the unifying principles of tolerance and liberty that underly our American society. What truly unites us in this NEW WORLD is not our religious beliefs or lack thereof, it is our social contract. Those who would rather not champion tolerance for all should probably emigrate to country that embraces their particular theology (like Israel or Saudi Arabia).
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” – First Amendment to the United States Constitution
OK, everyone in this thread is 100% wrong. This county was NOT founded as a Christian Nation. The Treaty of Tripoli clearly states that the US is NOT a Christian nation, and does not promote any one religion. None of the founding fathers were religious, so this is just wrong.
The cross should remain on Mt. Soledad because it’s been there for over 60 years, but in the future there should be no religious artifacts put up in public places or paid for with tax payer money. The cross isn’t even really a Christian symbol…or at least wasn’t until the Christians adopted it, much like how Hitler took the Hindu symbol for peace, rotated it 45 degrees and called it a swastika (bad example I know…but it works).
The US isn’t a Christian nation. The fact that Republicans feel the need to shove Christianity into other’s faces is one of the main reasons I’ve stopped wanting to participate in politics. Sure, if you want to pray at a friendly get together go ahead, but at a political conference, keep that shit outside, it’s inappropriate. I actually watched a Bill O’Reilly segment the other day on “The War on Christmas” which I think was the most hilarious thing ever since the majority of our country celebrates the holiday regardless. And even those who aren’t Christian enjoy Christmas, it’s a commercial holiday, not everyone rejoices about it being for the birth of christ.
Soooo basically, keep the Cross on Soledad, but don’t shove your religion down other’s throats
If a person wishes to say that this country was not founded as a Christian nation, that is their right. I think it fair to say that it was founded by Christian men. These men and the rest who were with them were Christians. They would be considered right wing radicals by today’s standards. However, they are the ones that, by their faith, formed the greatest country in the world.
Kimberly, my words to Jordan were: “When you decide…..”, I fail to see where I was shoving anything down her throat.
Michael, I will attempt to answer to the 2 verses you quoted, maybe I will be able to shed some light on them. I am a poor spokesman for God, but I will try.
If, and I say “IF”, you were the one true God and you had a specific plan in mind, a bigger plan than this life, and you needed people who were able to control themselves, on a multitude of levels, even with the constant pressures of temptations, from within and from outside sources, and for these sacrifices, you would choose them do the tasks you need done in the next life because they have proven themselves capable. And on top of that they would live eternally without sorrow, sadness, or pain. The person trying to accomplish this already has enough working against him. Trying to mix in another god with different teachings would get them further off the track you need them to follow.
Your second reference was to loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Where would a person find the motivation to even try to do what God asks if they aren’t willing to make that kind of commitment.
Of course, all of this is total nonsense to you, but I hope it helped a little in understanding that this is the kind of commitment that some of us have decided, of our own free will, to attempt to hold ourselves to. I hold no hard feelings against anyone who doesn’t believe in God, that is their right.
On a side note, Christ was born during the time of harvest which would have put it in August, or around that time. Also, the Bible makes no mention of using a cross as a symbol of Christianity. I don’t own one, nor does the church I attend have one on it’s building.
Words of Our Founding Fathers
“It already appears, that there must be in every society of men superiors and inferiors, because God has laid in the constitution and course of nature the foundations of the distinction.”
“It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping GOD in the manner most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship.”
“GOD: I conceive for many reasons that he is a good being; as I should be happy to have so wise, good, and powerful a being my friend, let me consider in what manner I shall make myself most acceptable to him.”
“Let me, then, not fail to praise my God continually, for it is his due, and it is all I can return for his many favors and great goodness to me; and let me resolve to be virtuous, that I may be happy, that I may please him who is delighted to see me happy.”
“I am a Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also.”
“I have sworn upon the alter of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”
“I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, humility and pacific temper of mind, which were the Characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation.”
“The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained. “
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports…. And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion “
Here is the beginning of the Treaty of Paris of 1783 :
“In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.
It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of the most serene and most potent Prince George the Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, arch- treasurer and prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc., and of the United States of America, to forget all past misunderstandings and differences that have unhappily interrupted the good correspondence and friendship which they mutually wish to restore, and to establish such a beneficial and satisfactory intercourse , between the two countries upon the ground of reciprocal advantages and mutual convenience as may promote and secure to both perpetual peace and harmony; and having for this desirable end already laid the foundation of peace and reconciliation by the Provisional Articles signed at Paris on the 30th of November 1782,…………………….”
If anything I wrote here offends anyone, I apologize.
Thanks to everyone that is contributing on this thread. I really appreciate all of your comments. This issue is ongoing and the different parties involved both seem to not be giving in. I expect that battle wage on for many more years.
I gotta say Thanks to Mr. Riggs.
I also believe that America was started by Christian leaders. In which other God would we Trust? I am stationed in San Diego and believe the Cross should stay. I also believe people have the right to believe in nothing if they choose. I for one feel lucky enough to have Jesus come to me. After the drowning of my 18mo old son. That moment saved my life and my soul. Since following Jesus Christ, my life has only gotten better and better. I met a wonder Christian Woman and we are married and Blessed.
We are also moving to Texas when i get out of the Service next year. The MAIN reason to move to Texas is for Christians. California is filled with so many lost liberal Atheists. Because Im Christian I will say the Cross coming down would disappoint me. But It will not even come close to scratching my Faith. And I know most lost people eventually find Christ closer to their end. Try reading a book called “To Heaven and back.” And explain the reason for the successful wealthy Surgeon to write this book other than for the truth. Thanks again for everyone opinion. I do not try to Judge you, or say you are wrong. Its your Opinion and your Right as an American to Voice it. But don’t shoot my opinion or my beliefs down because they are not yours. Im here in Afghanistan to put my life on the line to protect those Rights. To have a Cross to Honor our fallen Heroes is just that. To want it taken down shows disrespect not only to the Heroes and their families but to me and mine. God Bless you all, and I hope you find what you are looking for. I already know the reason we are here. Do you?
I am not a member of any organized religion. That being said, I don’t have a problem at all with the cross being used here. I do have a problem with government using any religion to set policy. Freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion. The founding fathers themselves were not all christian.
the First Amendment explicitly forbid the establishment of any official church or creed.
Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were deists. George Washington had pantheistic sense of providential destiny. their belief was that religion was a private matter in which the government should not interfere and that religion shouldn’t interfere in government
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